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Money TalksDaniel Gross takes readers' questions about the economy, housing market, and credit crisis.


Slate columnist Daniel Gross was online on Washingtonpost.com on Dec. 13, 2007, to discuss the National Association of Realtors' sunny report on the housing market and other financial topics. An unedited transcript of the chat follows.

(Continued from page 1)

"We must act now": In 1983, the Social Security Trust Fund was one year from depletion; the government convened a commission that looked at the problem, made a few minor changes in Social Security (can you even name them?) and behold, Social Security was safe for at least 30 years and maybe forever.

To sum up: The projections of the demise of Social Security are no more accurate than reading the entrails of a goat, and we would be foolish to make any great changes because of them.

Daniel Gross: Hey Princeton—are you hanging out with New York Times columnist Paul Krugman out there? Because he's been delivering a shorter, more polemical version of your argument in his op-eds, and I have to say I agree with you both.

I find it very hard to get riled up about the "Social Security" crisis (especially when many of the same people squawking most loudly about it are the same folks who approved the unfunded prescription drug entitlement in Medicare). All things considered, Social Security is in pretty good shape. And given the long-term horizon of all these projections, altering your assumptions (shifting growth, or productivity, or inflation up or down by a few tenths of a percentage point can make a huge difference).

When I hear politicians complain that Social Security is in a crisis, and that we should therefore start cutting benefits, my response would be to pose two questions.



1. How much of the Social Security surplus have you spent over the past seven years?
2. What about Medicare?

_______________________

Washington: In fairness, I think you ought to show us some forecasters who did get the timing and the scope of the housing slump correct.

Daniel Gross: Robert Shiller of Yale was pretty spot on. Also Nouriel Roubini of New York University (who has an excellent blog) has been pretty prescient in terms of the credit mess.

I concede—and I think I explicitly note in the column—that forecasting is exceedingly hard, and in some ways a fool's errand. There are just too many variables, and too much human fallibility involved.

_______________________

schuylercat (The Fray): Of course! As if a realtor can say anything negative? These people live for rose-colored glasses. How can they earn a living otherwise? This reads like high-voltage shtick from one-quarter of the imbecility that created this freaking mess in the first place. The developers: "The only thing worth buying is land!" Uh huh. Even worthless land, so long as it's for pennies on the dollar.

The builders: "We offer more house for less money!" Right. Built like flimsy little cracker boxes, even the best of them. KB, Shea, Toll Brothers, Lyon, Standard Pacific—they all basically build junk. The lenders: "Just take this adjustable-rate mortgage and then fix your credit!" One of my favorite come-ons. That increase from 3 percent to 9 percent is just a refinance away, but after two years most people weren't in better shape and couldn't refinance.

And then the element missing from the above-mentioned alchemy that can turn a $125,000 pile of sticks in Riverside, Calif., into a $500,000 gold mine: may I introduce the realtor. "We are honored to present to you this delightful (insert size) square foot (insert style)-styled home. Loaded with tons of charm and features, in the beautiful (insert neighborhood name) subdivision. The expansive kitchen with updated appliances and ceramic tile floors will appeal to the gourmet owner, while the soaring great room is ideal for entertaining guests. Upstairs there are four spacious bedrooms including the romantic master suite with separate whirlpool tub and stand up shower."

Accompanying photos for this type of ad typically show a mid-century rancher with beige stucco walls and dead grass, with bars on the windows and cheap paneling on the walls. As for "location, location, location"—have you ever been to Norco? Norco isn't quite Hell on Earth, but you can see it from there ... and smell it, too.

Alchemy requires collusion. For new homes, someone has to snatch up the land and get it zoned up, then someone has to build the house. For all homes, someone has to fund the buyer, and someone has to spew hysterical platitudes and masturbation about the place. There used to be a stigma attached to used-car salesmen, but realtors dodge that bullet every time. Why is that, I wonder?

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Daniel Gross is the author of Forbes Greatest Business Stories of All Time and Bull Run: Wall Street, the Democrats, and the New Politics of Personal Finance. He is also the editor of STERNbusiness, a management journal published by New York University's Stern School of Business.
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Remarks from the Fray:

I'm no economist, but I'm under the impression that this is a piece of fiction. I thought the story was the whole fund is used to buy T-Bills - which are then kept off the books when tallying the "official" national deficit.

Assuming my impressions are correct, what happens if no substantial changes are made in the next 20 or so years? The system goes into the red and starts "drawing on its trust fund" (in quotes because I consider it fiction), and instead of a 12 figure number written in black in the total national budget, we have a 12 figure number written in red - it would bankrupt us.

The reason I would consider it a crisis now is that you can't just wake up in 2045 and say "Whoops folks, we can't afford this program anymore, everybody's payments are cut by 30%". To be fair, you need to maintain payments to current retirees, and probably grandfather in people over 60.

This isn't to say I disagree with you about Medicare, just that I'm pretty sure the "Lockbox" is a fictional pretense for inaction.

--atworkforu

(To reply, click here.)

I won't pretend to know the numbers or assumptions involved in projecting the Social Security Trust fund balance in the future, but I do know some of the arguments of Princeton and Gross are flawed.

First, Princeton is dismissive of the demographic projections, but unlike the economic, there is a high degree of confidence in these. We know pretty precisely the number and ages of people here now, and we can make pretty good guesses about how long they will work, live and migration rates. It doesn't take a "doomsayer" to be concerned that we will have an unprecedented shift in the proportion of the population that is in it's later years, and to worry about the economic outcomes of that.

Princeton and Gross both refer to the present surplus and high balance in the Trust and conclude that "Today Social Security is in the best state it ever has been." No! We're looking at only half the equation here. If you have a defined benefit retirement plan at your company, be glad these guys do not run it!

If you want to examine health of a retirement or insurance fund (social security is both), you have to look at both the fund balance and liabilities.

This is where those demographic projections become important. There really is a large demographic bubble in the population born in the 1945-1963 period. That isn't made up, it's very real. Those people are in their prime earning years now, so Social Security damn should be running a large surplus and have a large balance. That's no reason itself to celebrate, because that large wave of people will soon retire. Social Security is building up funds, but also liabilities. It's obligated to pay those persons back someday. Actually, projections have the fund going into the red within 10 years (a timeframe for which economic projections are more robust than reading goat entrails). The question isn't how much the fund has relative to past fund balances (as if), or how much the intake is in any given year, the question is if there will be enough in the future to pay back all the people who are now paying into it.

Of course, Princeton did address this, saying that some projections have us maintaining an above zero balance, finishing a 75 year period with a surplus of "trillions". This raises the question of what balance we should be maintaining. Do we want every age group to get back roughly what they put in, or do we want economic growth and higher future relative earnings to continually subsidize the immediate preceding generations as they retire. If it's the former, we should be maintaining trillions in surpluses at all times, never going anywhere close to zero (how secure would you feel if you were told that your company's defined benefit plan had a near zero fund balance after you've worked there a number of years?). If it's the latter, then the fund could hover above the zero mark and still be considered a success.

The statements of Princeton and Gross seem to indicate they are in the latter camp. They make no mention at all of maintaining balances to pay future liabilities.

That's important when considering the worker/beneficiary ratio. Princeton notices we've seen a sharp decline in that number, and it hasn't hurt us yet, and concludes that it therefore won't hurt us in the future. What? To understand the flaw in this, one needs to understand why that number is significant.

If we are going to run SS in such a way that it hovers just above zero, rather than actually maintaining the funds on hand to pay future liabilities, then we are taking on a risk. What if our projections are wrong? Princeton is very derisive of economic forecasting, saying that things could very well be better than projected, but what if they turn out to be worse? What then?

Well, then either SS has to cut payments to beneficiaries to close the shortfall, or general fund tax revenues have to be diverted to shore up the system. That's where the ratio becomes important. Making up a forecasting error when there are 42 workers per beneficiary probably won't be a major burden on those workers. A forecasting error when the ratio is 2.2 to 1 could be devastating. We're talking potentially percentage points of GDP here.

This at a time when we also project huge shortfalls in Medicare, which will also have to be severely cut or paid out of the general fund, at a time when proportionately less of America is working age.

Princeton may ultimately be right that things will simply work out. What he is wrong about is that we should assume so simply because there is a fund balance and surplus now. He's also overly dismissive of economic forecasting. Yes, it's difficult and requires educated guessing, but it's also essential for smart planning, because we really should want to know if that fund balance we have today is sufficient to cover the liabilities that must be paid tomorrow. Anticipation and preparation for the future, even in the face of multiple unknowns, is smart policy.

--Sanjait

(To reply, click here.)

(12/16)





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