Indie vs. mainstream, populist vs. blog-snobby, funky vs. folky—don't you feel like these dichotomies merge and morph every time we try to grasp them? Take a band you two happily disdain: mountain-man beard proponents Iron & Wine.
Bob, I'd especially expect you to despise Sam Beam's spacey-fuzzy soundscapes, as they fall right in line with stuff we've been fondlydisagreeingabout for, gulp, nearly two decades. His whispering whines didn't work for me either until he teamed up with Calexico and put a little spring in his step. But "The Shepherd's Dog" hung around in my Rhapsody Sansa Player because it went way beyond moping: In his own postgraduate white boy way, Beam followed M.I.A. around the world, enriching his pup-tent ghost stories with Arabic handclaps, African guitar runs, and diasporic guitar that might have fit on that super Tinariwen record.
What Beam is chasing is pleasure—the blood rush that comes when some new wonder unfolds, whether it's a love thing, a previously unexplored backroad, or (this is pop, after all) a new commodity. Pleasure became a problem for indie rock in the 1990s; blame Kurt, blame heroin, blame political correctness, whatever, never mind. But it's totally back, from the silk-purse neo-hippiesms of freak folk (dudes, hippies get laid), to the roving house parties of CSS and Girl Talk (Paris Hilton jumped onstage during their Coachella sets—that's hot!), to the superstoner subcult that produced Pitchfork's 2007 No. 1, Panda Bear's "Person Pitch," an album that literally puts me to sleep.
And what values are expressed by the natty retro-soul scene that championed Amy Winehouse, if not the nightlife creed of boundaries crossed in the name of fun? At Winehouse producer/It Boy Mark Ronson's El Rey show last fall, Christina Aguilera and Nicole Richie hung in the VIP lounge as Ronson's interracial troupe laid down their rock-soul hybrids. Pitchfork hates Ronson, by the way—reviewer Adam Moerder gave his album Version a sneery 3.3. Is it because starlets boogie to his grooves? Maybe they'd better reconsider Girl Talk.
Sasha's critique of the year, already parsed in your previous posts, was a crucial corrective to the strain of indie rock that includes the Shins and the now officially overbashed Decemberists. Yet I hear the opposite everywhere: not white isolationism, but rampant appropriation of not just African-American but (as M.I.A. calls it) World town musical styles, as well as a slight if still inadequate increase in nonwhite membership in the club. Look at that Pitchfork Top 10—I'll never get Animal Collective, but beyond them the faves include indeterminate dubstep artist Burial, interracial trigonometry team Battles, and funky white boys Of Montreal and Spoon.
Maybe it's time to stop worrying about how political correctness has divided us and remind ourselves of the lessons it meant to teach: that copping someone's style without acknowledging their presence can be a problem; that libertinism can lead pretty quickly to exploitation if you're not careful; and that (go ahead, yawn) the personal is political, right down to your choice of samples and shout-outs.
I'm going into 2008 with determined optimism. Women are inching closer to equal representation in the mainstream and the underground, despite hip-hop's ensconced machismo—and hey, Jody, we've got Kid Sister and Santogold to give us hope for female rappers. A year after TV on the Radio's poll-topping triumphs, interracial (if not class-crossing) collars are still a trend. Curious nerds are indulging in fruitful explorations of worlds beyond their own bedrooms, traveling to the Balkans for their instruments, Manchester for their vintage soul, and France for their techno refresher course. And Robert Wyatt and the Wu-Tang Clan have both somehow survived.
What do I want next year? Sexiness in mainstream rock (sorry, Jody; while I agree that Daughtry has genuine charisma, he's too Christian and too blatantly married to satisfy my desire for new polymorphous rock gods); attention for Lizz Wright, whose upcoming album is pure gorgeous; the return of Missy, Erika Baud, the Breeders, and my mainstream home girl Sheryl Crow, and, completely divorced from trends, the return of Metallica.
As for now, I wish our conversation could go on and on. But I've got to make some chicken soup and give that new Drive-By Truckers record a play. It's not even January, and I'm already behind.
The Music Club: Panda Bear literally puts me to sleep.
Robert Christgau's Consumer Guide column appears monthly at msn.com. He is a contributing editor of Blender, a columnist at the Barnes & Noble Review, and a contributing critic for All Things Considered.Ann Powers is the chief pop-music critic of the Los Angeles Times.Jody Rosen is Slate's music critic. He lives in New York City. He can be reached at .
Why can't we just admit that Nickelback is the greatest Rock artist of our generation? By your standards of appreciation for Daughtry (post-grunge, big lungs, showmanship, populism, and oodles of record sales) then clearly Chad Kroeger has usurped the throne of Kurt Kobain down to Jimi Hendrix.
So why not? They have better guitar solos too. Why not them? They've made it themselves - working their way through dingy snowed out Canadian bars. Why not them? Every 18 year old knows the words to "Rock Star" and "How you Remind Me." Why not them?
Because they suck suck suck suck suck, and you know it. Their music is unoriginal (yet somehow Daughtry manages to ape THEM), their lyrics are the worst kind of ham-handed laughable tripe, and the "rocking" is the most middle-of-the-road ho hum of studio slickery ever to be committed to tape. They're a clumsy, artless band - the post grunge equivalent of Turner Bachman Overdrive or Grand Funk Railroad - at least those guys had good competition.
And here you go, giving Daughtry props for being popular. Michael Jackson, the Beatles, Elvis and Bing Crosby were popular, but they were also cultural touchstones as celebrity icons who represented what was good in their generation. Daughtry just represents what IS. He is the sound of reality TV, an Icon of the Bush Decade Generation. You know as well as the rest of us who aren't willing to substitute populism for depth that we will look back on all that with pity at best.
If you think the Shins are boring, you are a populist, open-minded musicologist. If you think Lil' Wayne is boring (just because something is up-tempo doesn't mean it can't be boring), then you are an elitist hipster douchebag. Just wanted to clear that up. Also, can we start backlashing on the whole poptimist thing yet? I mean nobody is saying that Transformers should end up on critic's end of year movie lists, or that "Dancing with the Stars" is better than "The Wire", or that the best novel of last year was by James Patterson. Why is it that popular opinion can't be ignored in music, but it can be for every other media outlet?
I started to write this long justification of how I'm a huge indie guy, how I go out of my way to be as anti-mainstream as possible but will always have a soft spot for Journey. But then I realized how trivial that is because you will never like it and the people that love it just do. And the people that love the song, have loved it for a quarter of a century now. That's substance. You can ignore it by trying to make your criticism sound like a social science by adding historical anecdotes but dropping names isn't dropping bombs. Schlock is putting down a song then dismissing any argument because "you're not buying it." That's cheap. That Brittney Spears or Soulja Boy you list might be on a soundtrack 10 years down the road, but it'll be put there ironically. You can say that a message of "Don't Stop Believin'," is 'hyperemotional' but is it really more shallow than a song that's about "Supermannin'" that ho and has a dance to go along to it??? Oh, and Brittney? At least Steve Perry was writing his own shit.
If I just gave you the middle finger and told you to fuck off would be pretty rock n' roll but I won't since I'm not from the "rebel generation." I'm inheriting an earth that could possibly be facing mass extinctions in 50 years with enough nukes to destroy the world ten times over. I have to go to grad school now, on top of college, just to stay competitive, just so I get a job that makes me wait in line for the Baby Boomer that decided to put off his retirement until he turns 75. So, in those moments where I can let my guard down, allow my heart to shake my cynicism- if only for 4 minutes- give me a song that espouses optimism. I'll listen to my indie, electronic, and underground hip-hop at home so let us all sing the chorus drunk or sober in the bar. Is it cliché? I don't know anymore. It's a post-modern world where every "heresy" and taboo has been upended. Don't you think it's a little more edgy, more "rebellious," these days to sing songs of determined hope?
I always find it interesting that music critics have to pay attention to and know all genres of music very well while most listeners (including Slate fray posters) seem to pretty much like one or two genres and dismiss everything else.
It's funny to see Double Up and Sound of Silver on the same list. I listen to a good swath of current "mainstream" music. I don't know that much about "indie" and other "underground" scenes, though I did start to get into some of the French inspired dance music stuff this year.
I found out about this stuff on the recommendation of critics who also give Timberlake, Timbaland, and The Clipse good reviews. The point of this rambling post is that if you see an artist on one of these top 25 lists that you have never heard of, give him / her a try, you may find something that you like.
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Remarks from the Fray:
Why can't we just admit that Nickelback is the greatest Rock artist of our generation? By your standards of appreciation for Daughtry (post-grunge, big lungs, showmanship, populism, and oodles of record sales) then clearly Chad Kroeger has usurped the throne of Kurt Kobain down to Jimi Hendrix.
So why not? They have better guitar solos too. Why not them? They've made it themselves - working their way through dingy snowed out Canadian bars. Why not them? Every 18 year old knows the words to "Rock Star" and "How you Remind Me." Why not them?
Because they suck suck suck suck suck, and you know it. Their music is unoriginal (yet somehow Daughtry manages to ape THEM), their lyrics are the worst kind of ham-handed laughable tripe, and the "rocking" is the most middle-of-the-road ho hum of studio slickery ever to be committed to tape. They're a clumsy, artless band - the post grunge equivalent of Turner Bachman Overdrive or Grand Funk Railroad - at least those guys had good competition.
And here you go, giving Daughtry props for being popular. Michael Jackson, the Beatles, Elvis and Bing Crosby were popular, but they were also cultural touchstones as celebrity icons who represented what was good in their generation. Daughtry just represents what IS. He is the sound of reality TV, an Icon of the Bush Decade Generation. You know as well as the rest of us who aren't willing to substitute populism for depth that we will look back on all that with pity at best.
--jwschmidt
(To reply, click here.)
If you think the Shins are boring, you are a populist, open-minded musicologist. If you think Lil' Wayne is boring (just because something is up-tempo doesn't mean it can't be boring), then you are an elitist hipster douchebag. Just wanted to clear that up. Also, can we start backlashing on the whole poptimist thing yet? I mean nobody is saying that Transformers should end up on critic's end of year movie lists, or that "Dancing with the Stars" is better than "The Wire", or that the best novel of last year was by James Patterson. Why is it that popular opinion can't be ignored in music, but it can be for every other media outlet?
--Utz_the_Crab_chip
(To reply, click here.)
I started to write this long justification of how I'm a huge indie guy, how I go out of my way to be as anti-mainstream as possible but will always have a soft spot for Journey. But then I realized how trivial that is because you will never like it and the people that love it just do. And the people that love the song, have loved it for a quarter of a century now. That's substance. You can ignore it by trying to make your criticism sound like a social science by adding historical anecdotes but dropping names isn't dropping bombs. Schlock is putting down a song then dismissing any argument because "you're not buying it." That's cheap. That Brittney Spears or Soulja Boy you list might be on a soundtrack 10 years down the road, but it'll be put there ironically. You can say that a message of "Don't Stop Believin'," is 'hyperemotional' but is it really more shallow than a song that's about "Supermannin'" that ho and has a dance to go along to it??? Oh, and Brittney? At least Steve Perry was writing his own shit.
If I just gave you the middle finger and told you to fuck off would be pretty rock n' roll but I won't since I'm not from the "rebel generation." I'm inheriting an earth that could possibly be facing mass extinctions in 50 years with enough nukes to destroy the world ten times over. I have to go to grad school now, on top of college, just to stay competitive, just so I get a job that makes me wait in line for the Baby Boomer that decided to put off his retirement until he turns 75. So, in those moments where I can let my guard down, allow my heart to shake my cynicism- if only for 4 minutes- give me a song that espouses optimism. I'll listen to my indie, electronic, and underground hip-hop at home so let us all sing the chorus drunk or sober in the bar. Is it cliché? I don't know anymore. It's a post-modern world where every "heresy" and taboo has been upended. Don't you think it's a little more edgy, more "rebellious," these days to sing songs of determined hope?
--SatoriThroughAllegory
(To reply, click here.)
I always find it interesting that music critics have to pay attention to and know all genres of music very well while most listeners (including Slate fray posters) seem to pretty much like one or two genres and dismiss everything else.
It's funny to see Double Up and Sound of Silver on the same list. I listen to a good swath of current "mainstream" music. I don't know that much about "indie" and other "underground" scenes, though I did start to get into some of the French inspired dance music stuff this year.
I found out about this stuff on the recommendation of critics who also give Timberlake, Timbaland, and The Clipse good reviews. The point of this rambling post is that if you see an artist on one of these top 25 lists that you have never heard of, give him / her a try, you may find something that you like.
--Alcibiades
(To reply, click here.)
(12/20)