The Surf Also RisesHow macho movies get misread as homoerotic.

Remarks from the Fray

The author takes umbrage that the cinematic depiction of the male body and male friendship is labeled as homoerotic when he believes that instead it's an instance of narcissism. What a predicament for men (gay or heterosexual) to be in--friendship and the male body is either sexualized or a vehicle for egoism. That's a rather narrow worldview to project on manhood and similar in many ways to what the entertainment industry projects on womanhood. Not being male myself, I certainly hope that men don't take this out of the theaters and view friendships and their bodies as solely vehicles for self-interest and sexuality--that would strike me as incredibly myopic and sad.

--eiruduais

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In a sense, the recognition of self and love of it would be, in fact, homo-love. Perhaps not erotic love or sexual love, but yes, a form of love. [...] There is something else going on in macho heroism brotherhood that isn't predominantly sexual, and as eros has been completely sexualized in certain circles of criticism, it would cause us to reject the notion that all macho heroism is homoerotic or homosexual. [...]

We don't have to get drawn into the distorted and convoluted arguments of critics who are trying to make everything Freud. There are more things out there, more important things out there, and many of them have little or nothing to do with sex, even as they may have lots to do with gender.

--BenK

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After reading The Iliad, which has to be the spiritual predecessor to the action movie it seems entirely possible for a work of art to be both homoerotic and, like, totally awesome, man. [...] The reaction of Achilles to Patroclus' death, that otherworldly combination of grief and rage that transforms him into the demigod among men is so profound precisely because the loss is so acute.

Who cares if he was gay or not? The important part is his reaction. The ruthless killing machine that Achilles becomes upon hearing of Patroclus' death has been mirrored in many action movies. I remember reading the section when Achilles gets his new armor from Hephaestus and thinking This is the "Oh, its ON" Montage. The point of the moment is about the purity of Achilles' fury, and what it turns him into. That's the part of it that is awesome.

--Systemz

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Straight men, unlike straight women, are not generally allowed to express their attraction to the male form or even their love of their male friends. Homoeroticism in cinema is an expression of the latent "homosexual" tendencies that exist amongst most, if not all, men. It is met with derision by critics not because they take it as a sign that all straight men are closet cases, but because of the clandestine way movie makers must appeal to these normal male feelings.

--coolya12001

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The large lively object with the pulsing protuberant member which you are ignoring is the idea of the male gaze. Traditionally speaking, straight guys gaze at hotness, they don't worry about looking hot. Both grooming their own bodies for the purpose of another's aesthetic pleasure/sexual desire and appreciating the physical beauty of another man are coded as gay. To be a proper straight guy you're not supposed to notice other guys' hotness nor to effectively be able to beautify yourself. Because the straight guy is always the looker and never the look-y.

--Diablevert

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The point of the discourse on Master and Slave, if I recall correctly, was to describe not just a static, "essentialist" relationship, but a dialectic the result of which lay in the Slave's overcoming and Aufhebung of his subordinate status, by means of the rational faculty. By studying the Master and learning from him, making him dependent on yourself, you not only liberate yourself but become a Master in your own right.

Feeney makes some good points; it's true: men can admire each other and not be gay. But I still can't help but wonder why Feeney has to conclude with the assumption that "gay" is an insult, a way to put another man down. Gay men can also be men of accomplishment - in any area of life. If Feeney wants to rehabilitate the idea of men sharing a narcissistic bond forged in mutual recognition of personal gloire, I would think being mistaken for gay would be something he'd strive for.

--MarkEHaag

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The premise of the heroic tradition, going back to Homer, is that real life is lived among men, that meaningful activity is what men do, and that the only relationships that really matter are those between men based on mutual esteem. In the Iliad, women are a necessity to do the cooking, to scratch the old itch, and to bear the next generation of manchildren, but they're otherwise a distraction from what really matters. The only male-female relationship we'd consider mature in Homer is between Hektor and Andromache, and Hektor is an unwilling hero, compelled to fight in defense of his home for a cause he does not believe in.

Among the Hellenes the homoerotic blended seamlessly into the homosexual. In Christian societies, there is a constant tension to keep the one from toppling over into another. As in Victorian England, the more patriarchal the culture, the greater the risk, the fear and the temptation that David's love for Jonathan, "passing the love of women," will take that extra physical step. Sex and emotional intimacy should be closely intertwined. Confine the female sphere to "kinder, kuche and kirche," and you make that connection difficult if not impossible between men and women. Make male friendships the only meaningful ones, and you leave them lacking consummation.

--jack_cerf

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