Culpa Carmela?
From: Margaret Crastnopol
To: Judith Shulevitz, Glen Gabbard, Philip Ringstrom, and Joel WhitebookPosted Monday, Dec. 2, 2002, at 8:06 AM ET
Who are these people?
It certainly is satisfying to hear Carmela's aria develop length and nuance. Her star-crossed love and passion warrant as much cinematic attention as Tony's conflicts and psychopathy, which we've already had hefty doses of. But to me Carmela's attachment to Furio seems notably lacking in self-awareness or psychic growth. Except for the fact that she withstands the urge to consummate her desire, her longing for Furio seems fairly infantile, blind, and persistently adolescent in character. She ignores the obvious fact that her beloved is seriously endangered by her yearnings for him; and rather than recognizing that his flight is an outgrowth of his reciprocation of her feelings, she worries that perhaps he never did love her. The level at which she struggles with her feelings is very basic—"I want him; I can't have him; what anguish!"—rather than her grappling with the implications of falling in love with one of her husband's henchmen. (Isn't Furio yet another ruthless killer, and doesn't she know this? And, isn't she trying to turn the tables on Tony in spades by cuckolding him with his underling?) Granted, love of this kind is blind, at least temporarily, but many people even in the throes of such longing will try to make sense of the emotional bind they're in. At the very least, we would hope that the suffering woman would recognize that she was taking out her rage (at being deprived of the lover) on her daughter and would stick around to make amends, rather than avoiding a mother/daughter confrontation.
Do I blame Carmela? Nope, the writers have clearly given up on granting any of these characters much psychological development, except on a very "lightweight" basis (as when Tony says that some of Carmela's sense of unfulfillment might have a little something to do with him). And after giving their characters the chance to grow emotionally for a full 11 episodes before (and several seasons before that), who can blame the writers for giving up?
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As far as Paulie goes, there's a case to be made that, in true Oedipal fashion, this is a guy stuck on his mother. As a result, any indignity (or murder) he perpetrates seems to him like an appropriate response if it defends or avenges a slight against Mom. Whether this extreme devotion is a "reaction formation" (a semblance of love replacing its opposite) masking an actual underlying hatred of his mother—this would be the next analytic question. But my hunch is that Judith is probably right—this character is fundamentally more homage than anything else.
Peggy
Culpa Carmela?
From: Margaret Crastnopol
To: Judith Shulevitz, Glen Gabbard, Philip Ringstrom, and Joel WhitebookPosted Monday, Dec. 2, 2002, at 8:06 AM ETGlen O. Gabbard, M.D., is a professor of psychiatry at Baylor College of Medicine and author of
The Psychology of The Sopranos, inspired by this discussion. Philip A. Ringstrom, Ph.D., Psy.D., is a senior faculty member at the Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis in Los Angeles. Joel Whitebook, Ph.D., is on the faculty of the Columbia Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research. Margaret Crastnopol, Ph.D., is on the faculty of the Northwest Center for Psychoanalysis. All are practicing therapists as well. Judith Shulevitz writes the "Close Reader" column for the
New York Times Book Review. Jodi Kantor is
Slate's New York editor.
Notes From The Fray Editor II:
Updating: wellmanswellman thinks Carmela is preggers. Syosset_Guy thinks there is too much emphasis on whacking and that no way is Tony gonna get it. And chango and rob_said_that have a nifty discussion of Tony's homophobia (or lack thereof).
Remarks From The Fray II:
Carmela reacts so strongly to allegations of Billy Budd being gay, because she has already cast Furio into the role of the tragic sailor. Furio's mutinous thoughts correspond, albeit imperfectly, to the plot of Billy Budd. The film version she has seen does not provide the gay subtext of the novel, so Carmela has a version perfectly edited for her own casting agenda. One can imagine the Billy Budd Furio, standing proudly erect on a ship's prow, with his luxurious locks flowing in the sea breeze. Reminiscent of a Fabio romance novel, no?
Surprisingly, it is Tony who tries to mediate the gay Billy Budd controversy, and even begs pardon for his son's use of the term "fag." Although it is clear that this open mindedness has more to do with anxiety about Meadow's male roommate than with sensitivity.
Or does it? Tony appears ambivalent to gays, which might be surprising considering his generally provincial worldview. Yet his handling of Ralphie's decidedly queer sexuality suggests Tony takes a pragmatic, laissez-faire view of sexuality. He might not understand the vagaries of sex, but he does not necessary condemn that which he does not comprehend.
Is it a coincidence that the episode following Tony's rejection of therapy shows him more stable, connected and together than any in recent memory? He shows an uncharacteristic empathy for Carmela and Meadow, even analyzing their relationship and conflict in surprisingly astute terms. Throughout the episode, Tony gives us a glimpse of his potential: a strong yet sensitive father and an efficient and pragmatic Boss. Could this New Tony presage a death made more tragic by his newfound inner strength?
And, speaking of tragic death, what comedy that AJ's second assignment should be yet another "gay" text: Death in Venice. Perhaps Carmela has seen the film version of this novella as well. Like the protagonist in Death in Venice, Furio flees to Italy for renewal (although in his case, it's Naples, not Venice). Will Furio find a metaphoric sexual epidemic awaiting him there? The graffiti transformation of a Venetian gondola into a penis suggests that the Death in Venice motif has only just begun.
-- chango
(To reply, click here.)
I had the same reaction when A.J. started reading the Thomas Mann. What a riot.
I have to disagree, however, that Tony "tolerates" gays. I think he tolerates them the way he tolerates blacks: they're all right as long as they don't try to enter his life. Remember that Tony didn't kill Ralphie until, finally, he had satisfied himself that Ralphie was some sort of "pervert." The horse was a provocation, sure, but with the sexual curtain open Ralphie was weak, a liability. He even paid Janice for the information, which suggests that his interest was more than mere curiosity: it was business, plain and simple.
I also think that the "gay" probing at dinner was Tony's blundering way of establishing whether Meadow was in harm's way sexually by living in a mixed-sex roommate environment. He actually seemed annoyed that the roomate *wasn't* gay, as if he might have to step in and wrestle with that situation now too. A gay man would pose no threat to his daughter's -- what, virginity? Honor?
Underneath it all, Tony is extremely traditional and violently reactionary. Remember how he belt-whipped the councilman who was diddling one of his former girlfriends? That scene seemed gratuitous at the time, but now it may be essential to an understanding Tony's character.
-- rob_said_that
(To reply, click here.)
Notes From The Fray Editor:
Even before our psychologists checked in, the Fray was busy debating Furio's fate and Johnny Sack's motivations. (The Sack thread is excellent and begins here.) GMG, one of our Sopranos regulars, captures the pathos of Furio's decision to leave while zinya (once Carolyn) neatly describes Meadow's "family secret."
Remarks From The Fray:
It is somewhat sad what Furio is giving up for Carmela's safety. He knows he could never kill Tony, the chopper incident proved that. So he cannot have her, his uncle's advice is sound, and she must not be allowed to pursue him. The only way to prevent that is to retreat to Italy, where Carm would be relatively helpless.
In spite of the fact that Furio loves her. In spite of the fact that he is obviously disgusted with the drunken, gambling Tony for cheating on her. (Carmela as Madonna figure to Furio?) In spite of the fact that (glancing sidelong while they both urinate) Furio doesn't think much of Tony's manhood.
He cannot simply move to Mineola or Minneapolis; Carmela would pursue him, find some reason. Napoli is much safer. So for her, he gives up the U.S. (which he loves, did you see the way his eyes fixed on the displays of flags at roadside gas stations) for Naples, which is no longer a place he wants to be. He returns to the female boss, the hamburger wrappers at the Naples Cathedral--a place where he will be unhappy, so that Carmela may live.
-- GMG
(To reply, click here.)
Tony is clueless about Furio, just as AJ is, despite all his firsthand evidence. Only Meadow puts the pieces together and deduces what's up with her mom, and giving Meadow too a family secret to now have to 'manage'. (That scene on the stairs of Tony and Meadow felt very real psychologically--especially Meadow's tracking of multiple new pieces of information, especially in the eyes, of both.)
-- zinya
(To reply, click here.)
(12/2)
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Notes From The Fray Editor II:
Updating: wellmanswellman thinks Carmela is preggers. Syosset_Guy thinks there is too much emphasis on whacking and that no way is Tony gonna get it. And chango and rob_said_that have a nifty discussion of Tony's homophobia (or lack thereof).
Remarks From The Fray II:
Carmela reacts so strongly to allegations of Billy Budd being gay, because she has already cast Furio into the role of the tragic sailor. Furio's mutinous thoughts correspond, albeit imperfectly, to the plot of Billy Budd. The film version she has seen does not provide the gay subtext of the novel, so Carmela has a version perfectly edited for her own casting agenda. One can imagine the Billy Budd Furio, standing proudly erect on a ship's prow, with his luxurious locks flowing in the sea breeze. Reminiscent of a Fabio romance novel, no?
Surprisingly, it is Tony who tries to mediate the gay Billy Budd controversy, and even begs pardon for his son's use of the term "fag." Although it is clear that this open mindedness has more to do with anxiety about Meadow's male roommate than with sensitivity.
Or does it? Tony appears ambivalent to gays, which might be surprising considering his generally provincial worldview. Yet his handling of Ralphie's decidedly queer sexuality suggests Tony takes a pragmatic, laissez-faire view of sexuality. He might not understand the vagaries of sex, but he does not necessary condemn that which he does not comprehend.
Is it a coincidence that the episode following Tony's rejection of therapy shows him more stable, connected and together than any in recent memory? He shows an uncharacteristic empathy for Carmela and Meadow, even analyzing their relationship and conflict in surprisingly astute terms. Throughout the episode, Tony gives us a glimpse of his potential: a strong yet sensitive father and an efficient and pragmatic Boss. Could this New Tony presage a death made more tragic by his newfound inner strength?
And, speaking of tragic death, what comedy that AJ's second assignment should be yet another "gay" text: Death in Venice. Perhaps Carmela has seen the film version of this novella as well. Like the protagonist in Death in Venice, Furio flees to Italy for renewal (although in his case, it's Naples, not Venice). Will Furio find a metaphoric sexual epidemic awaiting him there? The graffiti transformation of a Venetian gondola into a penis suggests that the Death in Venice motif has only just begun.
-- chango
(To reply, click here.)
I had the same reaction when A.J. started reading the Thomas Mann. What a riot.
I have to disagree, however, that Tony "tolerates" gays. I think he tolerates them the way he tolerates blacks: they're all right as long as they don't try to enter his life. Remember that Tony didn't kill Ralphie until, finally, he had satisfied himself that Ralphie was some sort of "pervert." The horse was a provocation, sure, but with the sexual curtain open Ralphie was weak, a liability. He even paid Janice for the information, which suggests that his interest was more than mere curiosity: it was business, plain and simple.
I also think that the "gay" probing at dinner was Tony's blundering way of establishing whether Meadow was in harm's way sexually by living in a mixed-sex roommate environment. He actually seemed annoyed that the roomate *wasn't* gay, as if he might have to step in and wrestle with that situation now too. A gay man would pose no threat to his daughter's -- what, virginity? Honor?
Underneath it all, Tony is extremely traditional and violently reactionary. Remember how he belt-whipped the councilman who was diddling one of his former girlfriends? That scene seemed gratuitous at the time, but now it may be essential to an understanding Tony's character.
-- rob_said_that
(To reply, click here.)
Notes From The Fray Editor:
Even before our psychologists checked in, the Fray was busy debating Furio's fate and Johnny Sack's motivations. (The Sack thread is excellent and begins here.) GMG, one of our Sopranos regulars, captures the pathos of Furio's decision to leave while zinya (once Carolyn) neatly describes Meadow's "family secret."
Remarks From The Fray:
It is somewhat sad what Furio is giving up for Carmela's safety. He knows he could never kill Tony, the chopper incident proved that. So he cannot have her, his uncle's advice is sound, and she must not be allowed to pursue him. The only way to prevent that is to retreat to Italy, where Carm would be relatively helpless.
In spite of the fact that Furio loves her. In spite of the fact that he is obviously disgusted with the drunken, gambling Tony for cheating on her. (Carmela as Madonna figure to Furio?) In spite of the fact that (glancing sidelong while they both urinate) Furio doesn't think much of Tony's manhood.
He cannot simply move to Mineola or Minneapolis; Carmela would pursue him, find some reason. Napoli is much safer. So for her, he gives up the U.S. (which he loves, did you see the way his eyes fixed on the displays of flags at roadside gas stations) for Naples, which is no longer a place he wants to be. He returns to the female boss, the hamburger wrappers at the Naples Cathedral--a place where he will be unhappy, so that Carmela may live.
-- GMG
(To reply, click here.)
Tony is clueless about Furio, just as AJ is, despite all his firsthand evidence. Only Meadow puts the pieces together and deduces what's up with her mom, and giving Meadow too a family secret to now have to 'manage'. (That scene on the stairs of Tony and Meadow felt very real psychologically--especially Meadow's tracking of multiple new pieces of information, especially in the eyes, of both.)
-- zinya
(To reply, click here.)
(12/2)