William F. Buckley Jr. and Michael Kinsley
All Men Are Not Created Equal
By William Buckley Jr.
Posted Tuesday, March 27, 2001, at 6:18 PM ETMichael Kinsley reminisced on the late William F. Buckley during an online chat on Feb. 28, 2008. Read the transcript.
Dear Michael,
I hope it went well at your class, and we'll get on to nuclear proliferation, but only after I answer the two questions you put to me. The first suggested that manners, as practiced in cyber world, are universal, imposing on me the burden of justifying conventional practices other than by pleading tradition. OK. I suppose one way to confront the point full-frontally is to say simply that in fact everybody isn't equal except in the small symbolic respect that everyone appears equal in a phone directory and a voting booth. But teachers and pupils aren't equal, nor are colonels and privates. In not only minor but major symbolic respects, they are equal before the law and before the eyes of God, but why do I have to bear the burden of proving lapidary distinctions?
You ask how do I do it? I have a rule, which is that no undergraduate calls me Bill. That's not only because I think this right, but because as you get older, you beware most keenly self-serving biological cosmetics, in this situation the older man who affects to be one of the boys. My second rule is to ask to be called Bill by those who have graduated from college and attained a certain age. But my subsecond rule is to ask them once, and then again, but not a third time. The reason for it is that there is hardly any point in imposing a psychological burden while attempting to relieve a social burden. If the 22-year-old is uncomfortable calling me by my first name, I won't order him to do so. At dinner with my retired headmaster, then age 80, my wife was asked to call him Ed. Her reply was perfect: "Are you crazy?" The headmaster in question would have been as easy to call by his first name as Endicott Peabody, who had been headmaster to my own headmaster. I deeply respect, indeed love, a renowned philosopher and former professor of mine, who if he makes it another few months will be 100. He asked me a few years ago to call him Paul; I did, and do, but wince.
So, do I think the Supreme Court made a correct pass at affirmative action in the field you describe? Yes. My views on the general subject you have probably been exposed to in all those years of wretched muteness when you presided over Firing Line debates and couldn't give your own views. Mine are conveniently compressed as follows: I think it is right (and I am making an extra-utilitarian point) to do affirmative action in the private sector. Yes Harvard, no University of California ...What have I forgotten? To promise you I won't return to manners and morals. What do I get in return? Since Slate is free?
X,
B
All Men Are Not Created Equal
By William Buckley Jr.
Posted Tuesday, March 27, 2001, at 6:18 PM ETReader Comments from The Fray:
[Thursday notes from the Fray Editor: Bruce F. Cole appears to be addressing here some amalgamated version of the two distinguished Breakfast Tablers, but we never let that sort of consideration stand in the way of a cheap shot in The Fray. A couple of readers pointed out that the Girard bequest to which Mr. Buckley refers (Wednesday) was made in the 1840s; the Supreme Court struck down its whites-only provision in 1968. Tom R (yes, again) writes about diversity with the memorable sentence "Working for the Air Force you get all sorts of opportunities to find out how to discriminate against other people, sexually prey on their weaknesses, steal the government's money, and solicit bribes from government contractors." There appears to be some attempt to link this description with Slate, but best left hidden we think.]
Boycotts are for sissies. The Yale students planning a boycott of Clinton's appearance are only doing it to draw attention to themselves. They deserve no such attention. Boycotting a speech doesn't do anything. It doesn't even say anything. It just sort of suggests that people who do not want to do or even say anything want very badly to look as if they are.
Do these Yalies disapprove of Sen. Clinton, or what she represents? Fine; let them show in their post-Yale lives that they stand for something better. That would be a statement worth making. Right now it doesn't sound as if they have anything to say.
--Joseph Britt
(To reply, click here.)
[Wednesday notes from the Fray Editor: The Fray is divided into two camps: those who think modes of address a dull topic, and those who cannot pile their perceptions in fast enough. There is also a meta-level of discussion as to what makes a good "Breakfast Table" and a good Fray--see for example Charmy, here. Alexander Chancellor raises an excellent point about possible national differences in formality.
Those who could tear themselves away from names wanted to discuss affirmative action here, and here ("I'm confused, they're both wrong"). Tom R, in addition to the contribution below, revealed that he once received a memorably specific grant for being an "exceptional married engineering student who planned to attend grad school". We're sure you deserved it Tom. More good stories here and here.
Publius wants the Fray Editor to ask Mr Buckley a question, but Zeitguy knows why she can't: "We talk to Kinsley, Kinsley talks to God, God sends email to Buckley..."]
Being an old friend of Michael or Mike Kinsley, yet still undecided whether to call him Mike or Michael, I am particularly interested in this correspondence. I tend towards calling him Michael, not because I object to "Mike" in any way at all but because I am British and somehow assume that "Michael" is what would be expected of me by Americans, even though Britain long ago became a nation of "Mikes" rather than "Michaels". When I was editor of the Spectator in the 1970s, I published a couple of rather dull articles by a young lawyer under the name Anthony Blair. He is now Prime Minister and would be appalled if anyone called him anything other than Tony.
--Alexander Chancellor
(To reply, or to read this post in full, click here.)
If, as Mr. Kinsley suggests, Mr. Buckley must defend his preference for civilized formality on grounds other than tradition, it seems to me Kinsley should argue for informality on grounds other than its current vogue among Internet users. They've also made all-lowercase the standard for email, but we're in no rush to adopt that as general usage.
--Scott Dickensheets
(To reply, click here.)
Harvard may be privately controlled but it's larded with government funding in both its research programs and in government subsidies for basic education programs. I'd only accept Mr. Buckley's concept about affirmative action being acceptable for the private sector if in fact Harvard (or any other private college) could set up some sort of 'Chinese Wall' to segregate the publicly funded segments from the privately funded segments. The latter then could come under the Buckley programmatic blessing.
--Tom R
(To reply, click here.)
[Monday notes from the Fray Editor: It would be quite an achievement to be considered the biggest troublemaker on the Fray, but we may have a contender: step forward Neill Hamilton. We are naturally not going to publish the offending post, in which he tries to turn Breakfast Tablers against each other, but we will tell you that he has tried this in the past (here and here) and made a notably bad taste post which required a special reader warning. Amber, below, is doing her best, too.]
Two thoughts for Mr. Buckley: The nicknamed figures of stature you mention are Southerners. For reasons I've never quite plumbed, given names are normally shortened there (I accepted the same sort of abbreviation during several years in the South), regardless of the formality of the situation. Yankees adopt nicknames less consistently.
As a New Yorker somewhere in age between you and Michael Kinsley, I can't escape thinking of you as Mr. Buckley and him as Michael. Age evidently has something to do with it. In print, his bylines are always Michael, but he's a leader in an industry largely run by and for an even younger generation, one far less formal than either of you.
The more interesting question might be if it matters at all in this era. A great many Southerners command respect whatever they're called.
--Ellie C
(To reply, click here.)
What do your parents call you when you are in trouble? By your nickname or by your full name? Seems to me William, and poor Christopher, were awful children who did nothing but get into mischief and trouble. They are just used to being called by their full names.
--Amber
(To reply, click here.)
(3/26)
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Reader Comments from The Fray:
[Thursday notes from the Fray Editor: Bruce F. Cole appears to be addressing here some amalgamated version of the two distinguished Breakfast Tablers, but we never let that sort of consideration stand in the way of a cheap shot in The Fray. A couple of readers pointed out that the Girard bequest to which Mr. Buckley refers (Wednesday) was made in the 1840s; the Supreme Court struck down its whites-only provision in 1968. Tom R (yes, again) writes about diversity with the memorable sentence "Working for the Air Force you get all sorts of opportunities to find out how to discriminate against other people, sexually prey on their weaknesses, steal the government's money, and solicit bribes from government contractors." There appears to be some attempt to link this description with Slate, but best left hidden we think.]
Boycotts are for sissies. The Yale students planning a boycott of Clinton's appearance are only doing it to draw attention to themselves. They deserve no such attention. Boycotting a speech doesn't do anything. It doesn't even say anything. It just sort of suggests that people who do not want to do or even say anything want very badly to look as if they are.
Do these Yalies disapprove of Sen. Clinton, or what she represents? Fine; let them show in their post-Yale lives that they stand for something better. That would be a statement worth making. Right now it doesn't sound as if they have anything to say.
--Joseph Britt
(To reply, click here.)
[Wednesday notes from the Fray Editor: The Fray is divided into two camps: those who think modes of address a dull topic, and those who cannot pile their perceptions in fast enough. There is also a meta-level of discussion as to what makes a good "Breakfast Table" and a good Fray--see for example Charmy, here. Alexander Chancellor raises an excellent point about possible national differences in formality.
Those who could tear themselves away from names wanted to discuss affirmative action here, and here ("I'm confused, they're both wrong"). Tom R, in addition to the contribution below, revealed that he once received a memorably specific grant for being an "exceptional married engineering student who planned to attend grad school". We're sure you deserved it Tom. More good stories here and here.
Publius wants the Fray Editor to ask Mr Buckley a question, but Zeitguy knows why she can't: "We talk to Kinsley, Kinsley talks to God, God sends email to Buckley..."]
Being an old friend of Michael or Mike Kinsley, yet still undecided whether to call him Mike or Michael, I am particularly interested in this correspondence. I tend towards calling him Michael, not because I object to "Mike" in any way at all but because I am British and somehow assume that "Michael" is what would be expected of me by Americans, even though Britain long ago became a nation of "Mikes" rather than "Michaels". When I was editor of the Spectator in the 1970s, I published a couple of rather dull articles by a young lawyer under the name Anthony Blair. He is now Prime Minister and would be appalled if anyone called him anything other than Tony.
--Alexander Chancellor
(To reply, or to read this post in full, click here.)
If, as Mr. Kinsley suggests, Mr. Buckley must defend his preference for civilized formality on grounds other than tradition, it seems to me Kinsley should argue for informality on grounds other than its current vogue among Internet users. They've also made all-lowercase the standard for email, but we're in no rush to adopt that as general usage.
--Scott Dickensheets
(To reply, click here.)
Harvard may be privately controlled but it's larded with government funding in both its research programs and in government subsidies for basic education programs. I'd only accept Mr. Buckley's concept about affirmative action being acceptable for the private sector if in fact Harvard (or any other private college) could set up some sort of 'Chinese Wall' to segregate the publicly funded segments from the privately funded segments. The latter then could come under the Buckley programmatic blessing.
--Tom R
(To reply, click here.)
[Monday notes from the Fray Editor: It would be quite an achievement to be considered the biggest troublemaker on the Fray, but we may have a contender: step forward Neill Hamilton. We are naturally not going to publish the offending post, in which he tries to turn Breakfast Tablers against each other, but we will tell you that he has tried this in the past (here and here) and made a notably bad taste post which required a special reader warning. Amber, below, is doing her best, too.]
Two thoughts for Mr. Buckley: The nicknamed figures of stature you mention are Southerners. For reasons I've never quite plumbed, given names are normally shortened there (I accepted the same sort of abbreviation during several years in the South), regardless of the formality of the situation. Yankees adopt nicknames less consistently.
As a New Yorker somewhere in age between you and Michael Kinsley, I can't escape thinking of you as Mr. Buckley and him as Michael. Age evidently has something to do with it. In print, his bylines are always Michael, but he's a leader in an industry largely run by and for an even younger generation, one far less formal than either of you.
The more interesting question might be if it matters at all in this era. A great many Southerners command respect whatever they're called.
--Ellie C
(To reply, click here.)
What do your parents call you when you are in trouble? By your nickname or by your full name? Seems to me William, and poor Christopher, were awful children who did nothing but get into mischief and trouble. They are just used to being called by their full names.
--Amber
(To reply, click here.)
(3/26)