Joseph Britt, Arthur Stock, and Will Vehrs
Smackdown Camp, Radical Reform, and a Community Armory
By Will Vehrs
Posted Wednesday, March 14, 2001, at 5:26 PM ETAn Urgent Appeal to Arthur and Joe,
Look, Arthur, I know you are preoccupied with next summer's Stocks vs. Mendelsohn smackdown camp, but in the meantime, we must return to "The Fray" on Friday, stripped of the "S" from the temp agency. That's OK, except that we will probably face an unholy Zeitguy Axis, formed while we slept. Are we going to remain three iconoclastic individual Fraygrants or band together as the "Three Amigos" and face this potential menace together?
What really might be trouble, though, is the insurrection among federal employees that you are fomenting, Joe. Workers without bureaucrats? Impossible.
Arthur, I don't really want to take away Social Security from rich people--I was just trying to see if there are areas off-limits to class warfare arguments. Tax cuts, yes; direct checks, no. Your legal analysis seems sound to this layman, and I would agree that it is defensible to consider means-testing for future benefits. I also think it is defensible to consider how private accounts might work, an idea that seems to have gone down with the Nasdaq.
Doing something radical--like reforming Social Security or truly reforming our tax code--seems very unlikely given today's evenly divided government. Both political parties seem locked in a titanic struggle to just to neutralize each other's ideas. What will it take for big legislative/policy changes to occur in this country? A national crisis? How does one party gain a working majority so it can push through a coherent agenda? Do we need a president who has won more than 50 percent of the vote? A candidate willing to be a one-term president in order to put through tough choices? A female president who might have an easier time convincing us to eat our spinach?
Or, is gridlock the ideal form of government? Can we incrementally change our way to solving all problems?
Congressman Frank Wolf, R-Va., has apparently proposed a tax credit for installing home workstations that allow telecommuting. Sounds great--work at home, more family time, less traffic, and Uncle Sam kicks in cash. Maybe this is a great piece of legislation. But if a company hasn't allowed a worker to telecommute by now, I don't think it ever will. It's probably just another possible amendment to the tax preparers' employment act.
Like Joe, I despair of discussing the Second Amendment and gun control. I have never owned a firearm of any kind, and the only weapons I ever touched or fired were as an infantryman in the old Army, not the new "Army of One." Nonetheless, I strenuously defend the right of others to own guns, but I am willing to discuss various controls, which, to the die-hard NRA types, makes me James Brady. I would like to offer one modest possible solution that will undoubtedly draw scorn: armories. Don't store your guns or, more important, your ammo, at home, except for basic protection. Store them in a community armory where they are locked away and guarded. Isn't that the concept of the "militia" that's in the Constitution? Gun owners can gather at the armory and talk guns, gun safety, and the 12-point buck that got away. This idea goes against my belief in limited government, but if I were a gun owner, I'd prefer it to the "taking away" alternative you say is constitutional.
Way too long, I know.
Will
P.S.: Joe, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn as an Army marksman, but I was awesome with a flame-thrower.
Smackdown Camp, Radical Reform, and a Community Armory
By Will Vehrs
Posted Wednesday, March 14, 2001, at 5:26 PM ETThis week, three "star posters" from "The Fray" (our reader response forum) visit "The Breakfast Table." Joseph Britt is a Wisconsin free-lance writer with over a decade of experience working for state and federal officeholders. Arthur Stock, who uses the cybernym "History Guy," practices law in Philadelphia. Will Vehrs, who posts as "WillV," is a Virginia businessman. Reader Comments From The Fray:
[Notes from the Fray Editor: Hey, guys, wotcha doing up there? Is the air different? We're glad to see you haven't forsaken the Fray. The board is jumping: we are having to send out to the icon sweatshop for more stars, checkmarks and Slate signs, as we are using them up so fast. (For an explanation of the symbols, please click here.) And WillV, we have been known to describe the Fray as a dress-down-Friday kind of board, but now we find you don't wear make-up to post here…there's such a thing as too much informality.
Bluto says it's the end of the Fray as we know it: because all the posters will be writing solely to get checks and stars. That'll be the day Bluto. Helen Weber asks whether there are any women star posters. The answer is no, not right now. There are very few star posters (and if you have read the various explanations you know that the star is for the poster, not for individual posts: it recommends someone who has made good posts in the past), and as it happens no woman has been chosen so far. We hope to change that soon.]
Strut that stuff but watch out…
When History Guy announced in this Fray that he was going to propose to Slate a "Breakfast Table" made up of posters on the grounds that most of the BT chatter sent everyone back to bed, I chimed in that it was a terrific idea, since the Fray usually has the most interesting material on Slate. I didn't really think Slate would buy it, but it has and the editors deserve a modest round of applause.
Congratulations, Will, Joe, Arthur. But beware: now that you've been plucked from among the unwashed masses to become card-carrying members of the media elite, agents of the left-wing media conspiracy, lackeys of the right-wing globalist-corporatist masters of the media, uncounted numbers of ordinary folks who have their piece to say already are drawing a bead on you. By week's end, you may feel like an Afghan statue after the Taliban artillery have passed by.
--Publius
(To reply, click here .)
[Tuesday notes from the Fray Editor: History Guy's sister, we salute you. The Mendelsohns of blessed memory would be proud of you. Jennifer Mendelsohn , as WillV says, came into the Fray and said this "Can I viciously flame one of you for no reason? Anyone wanna get married?" Amber is proposing some more unholy alliance with Zeitguy. She also called for more viciousness in the Fray here (ever agreeable, Fray posters called each other names). She is obviously a trouble-causer, argumentative and high maintenance. Just the kind of poster we like, in fact, welcome Amber!
This "Breakfast Table" certainly worked the magic in The Fray. The enigmatic Dola, a sadly-missed poster, re-appeared. There was endless discussion of women posters, for example here: a subject we have never seen mentioned before but which is now a hot topic. There were absolutely stellar discussions, for example on military training and campaign finance, here, and on estate tax, here. The "Breakfast Table" participants did not disdain their spiritual home: they are to be congratulated for answering critics and friends and encouraging discussions in the most good-humored way.
We're just mentioning this: there is a very very bad taste set of jokes about military training accidents here: don't read if you are easily shocked or a Yankees fan.]
Full disclosure here: Arthur Stock is my brother. And though I would be stretching the point to say, as does the junior Senator from New York, that my brother "saddens me," I must say about this stance on the inheritance tax: enough! I am certainly as knee-jerk a liberal as anyone else in my family (who can forget mom's explanation in the voting both: "you can vote for whomever you like, but if you pull the Republican lever your arm will fall off?"), but must you be quite so adamant? Did our loving parents sweat and toil their 3-day-a-week jobs as professors so their hard-earned money could buy oversized berets for an armed service with astonishingly poor aim? I think not. I offer constructive advice: if you find the law unjust, just hand over your share of the inheritance to me. I'll take care of it. You're welcome to pay my taxes on it. As the junior Senator of New York would surely deny saying: That's what family is for!"
--Lil sis
(To reply, click here .)
[Final notes from the Fray Editor: Arthur Stock really got quite enough exposure this week, but we can't resist his leftovers post, here (and after all, he is a friend of both Marty Peretz and Scott Shuger, apparently). The idea of the peasants with pitchforks representing the Fray will amuse us in some long working day ahead.
This has been a great "Breakfast Table" and a fabulous Fray, interaction at its finest, and more stars, checks and icons than you could shake a stick at. Well done all round: for this week you all deserved gold stars. (You're not getting them, but that's another matter. Oh, except for WillV…)]
A wonderful conversation, easily the equal to anything we've seen from the "pros".
One thing that is particularly heartening to me is that although these three fellows claim to have different political affiliations and tendencies; their thoughts, suggestions, and exchanges abound with common sense and good-faith. Given the posturing that is common among professional pundits, and given the histrionics of the average webboard poster, this week's "Breakfast Table" is far and away better than anything I might have expected. This reflects well on the participants, of course, but it also says something complimentary about Slate's editorial staff.
Good job
--Keith M. Ellis
(To reply, click here.)
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Reader Comments From The Fray:
[Notes from the Fray Editor: Hey, guys, wotcha doing up there? Is the air different? We're glad to see you haven't forsaken the Fray. The board is jumping: we are having to send out to the icon sweatshop for more stars, checkmarks and Slate signs, as we are using them up so fast. (For an explanation of the symbols, please click here.) And WillV, we have been known to describe the Fray as a dress-down-Friday kind of board, but now we find you don't wear make-up to post here…there's such a thing as too much informality.
Bluto says it's the end of the Fray as we know it: because all the posters will be writing solely to get checks and stars. That'll be the day Bluto. Helen Weber asks whether there are any women star posters. The answer is no, not right now. There are very few star posters (and if you have read the various explanations you know that the star is for the poster, not for individual posts: it recommends someone who has made good posts in the past), and as it happens no woman has been chosen so far. We hope to change that soon.]
Strut that stuff but watch out…
When History Guy announced in this Fray that he was going to propose to Slate a "Breakfast Table" made up of posters on the grounds that most of the BT chatter sent everyone back to bed, I chimed in that it was a terrific idea, since the Fray usually has the most interesting material on Slate. I didn't really think Slate would buy it, but it has and the editors deserve a modest round of applause.
Congratulations, Will, Joe, Arthur. But beware: now that you've been plucked from among the unwashed masses to become card-carrying members of the media elite, agents of the left-wing media conspiracy, lackeys of the right-wing globalist-corporatist masters of the media, uncounted numbers of ordinary folks who have their piece to say already are drawing a bead on you. By week's end, you may feel like an Afghan statue after the Taliban artillery have passed by.
--Publius
(To reply, click here .)
[Tuesday notes from the Fray Editor: History Guy's sister, we salute you. The Mendelsohns of blessed memory would be proud of you. Jennifer Mendelsohn , as WillV says, came into the Fray and said this "Can I viciously flame one of you for no reason? Anyone wanna get married?" Amber is proposing some more unholy alliance with Zeitguy. She also called for more viciousness in the Fray here (ever agreeable, Fray posters called each other names). She is obviously a trouble-causer, argumentative and high maintenance. Just the kind of poster we like, in fact, welcome Amber!
This "Breakfast Table" certainly worked the magic in The Fray. The enigmatic Dola, a sadly-missed poster, re-appeared. There was endless discussion of women posters, for example here: a subject we have never seen mentioned before but which is now a hot topic. There were absolutely stellar discussions, for example on military training and campaign finance, here, and on estate tax, here. The "Breakfast Table" participants did not disdain their spiritual home: they are to be congratulated for answering critics and friends and encouraging discussions in the most good-humored way.
We're just mentioning this: there is a very very bad taste set of jokes about military training accidents here: don't read if you are easily shocked or a Yankees fan.]
Full disclosure here: Arthur Stock is my brother. And though I would be stretching the point to say, as does the junior Senator from New York, that my brother "saddens me," I must say about this stance on the inheritance tax: enough! I am certainly as knee-jerk a liberal as anyone else in my family (who can forget mom's explanation in the voting both: "you can vote for whomever you like, but if you pull the Republican lever your arm will fall off?"), but must you be quite so adamant? Did our loving parents sweat and toil their 3-day-a-week jobs as professors so their hard-earned money could buy oversized berets for an armed service with astonishingly poor aim? I think not. I offer constructive advice: if you find the law unjust, just hand over your share of the inheritance to me. I'll take care of it. You're welcome to pay my taxes on it. As the junior Senator of New York would surely deny saying: That's what family is for!"
--Lil sis
(To reply, click here .)
[Final notes from the Fray Editor: Arthur Stock really got quite enough exposure this week, but we can't resist his leftovers post, here (and after all, he is a friend of both Marty Peretz and Scott Shuger, apparently). The idea of the peasants with pitchforks representing the Fray will amuse us in some long working day ahead.
This has been a great "Breakfast Table" and a fabulous Fray, interaction at its finest, and more stars, checks and icons than you could shake a stick at. Well done all round: for this week you all deserved gold stars. (You're not getting them, but that's another matter. Oh, except for WillV…)]
A wonderful conversation, easily the equal to anything we've seen from the "pros".
One thing that is particularly heartening to me is that although these three fellows claim to have different political affiliations and tendencies; their thoughts, suggestions, and exchanges abound with common sense and good-faith. Given the posturing that is common among professional pundits, and given the histrionics of the average webboard poster, this week's "Breakfast Table" is far and away better than anything I might have expected. This reflects well on the participants, of course, but it also says something complimentary about Slate's editorial staff.
Good job
--Keith M. Ellis
(To reply, click here.)