Marisa Bowe and Ken Kurson
Frolicking Around the Campfire
By Marisa Bowe
Posted Thursday, June 29, 2000, at 12:45 PM ETVoting with your feet for onion breath all day? Hmmmm.
While I guess I think I maybe agree with you about the Scouts' right to do what they want, I was thinking this is a perfect issue for the now-defined bloc of voters called "Bobos" to get involved with. I didn't read the book, but Bobos are socially liberal, right? And lots of them have kids Boy Scout age, right? They should invent their own Boy Scouts, with a culture that suits them more than the current one does.
I do think that one argument to be made on behalf of forcing the Scouts to change their ways is that the Scouts are a sort of de facto All-American, public institution, in a way. There is no governmental equivalent to them, and I would imagine that they proudly declare themselves to be a pillar of our society. And in lots of towns, they may well be one of the only social groups available for boys to join. Well if that's the case, then they're not exactly a private organization, in practice. They shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Also, this may sound naïve or something, but one of my reactions to that decision is, it's just mean on the part of the Boy Scouts. It's not in the spirit of brotherhood or whatever. It's small and ignorant and cruel. Not only that, it's stupid. The Boy Scouts are, like, in denial about what really goes on in their own organization. A year or so ago, Clive Thompson wrote a piece for us about his Cub Scout troop in Canada. In it, he talks about the very high level (and intensity) of homoerotic horseplay that went on during Scout activities. I can't resist quoting some juicy details at length:
In my junior-high Sex Ed class, I learned that one-tenth of humanity was gay or lesbian. By the time I turned 14, I was beginning to seriously doubt that statistic. From what I'd seen in the Boy Scouts, it seemed more likely that at least one-half of all boys were flaming queers.
At weekend camps, far away from all trappings of normal parental authority, our patrols would erupt in eye-popping displays of boy-on-boy sex play. While swimming, we would single out one particularly vulnerable child, strip off his swimsuit, then chase him screaming through the woods, snapping photographs as he ran. In the evening, I'd watch in fascination as pre-teen boys played strip poker, in which the losers were forced not only to disrobe, but to dance freakily accomplished bump-and-grinds. If a Scout was out to get you, he might "hang a rat": a euphemism for dangling his naked dick in your unsuspecting face.
Cubs who fell asleep too early were punished by older Scouts, who would rub their naked asses into the boys' squealing faces. Anal fixations abounded: several Scouts specialized in ramming their fingers up their asses, pulling them out, then chasing other boys around with the soiled digits. As the sexual play became increasingly aggressive and baroque, you could feel the fabric of self-control stretch as thin as cellophane, ready to tear at any moment and send the entire 20-boy troop into a wild orgy.
Hot, hot stuff, man. Makes you think, eh?
My thoughts this morning revolved around the "Circuits" section of the New York Times. Fascinating articles about, among other things, how women over age 55 are the fastest-growing group online, and about the prevalence of online gaming in China:
"It's a social activity," Mr. Zhang said. "Playing a game on the Net is very different from playing a game on a machine because you can feel other people's hearts beating during the game."
Right on. Or as we Sissyfighters say--boys and girls alike -- "SEE YOU ON THE ASPHALT, SISTERS!!!!" Sounds kinda gay, no? Heh heh.
Frolicking Around the Campfire
By Marisa Bowe
Posted Thursday, June 29, 2000, at 12:45 PM ETMarisa Bowe is the editor-in-chief of Word, the executive producer of Sissyfight.com, and a co-editor of Gig: Americans Talk About Their Jobs at the Turn of the Millennium (click here to buy it). Ken Kurson is the editor of GreenMagazine.com, writes the "Green" column each month in Esquire, and is the author of The Green Magazine Guide to Personal Finance (click here to buy it). Reader Response from The Fray (to be read after the final entry):
[From the Fray Editor: Ken, Ken you didn't need to mention homosexuality or abortion to encourage controversy--saying there are too many people and they live too long (Tuesday) worked just fine. Fray posters came out in force, bringing with them Spinoza and a 95-year-old grandmother. The post below was titled Don't tell me when to die Mr Kurson:]
What an ugly letter by Mr Kurson! How exactly is the premise that people should live longer demonstrably false? I like the idea of using government money to prolong life (especially my life, it's demonstrably true that my life is cool). We have a right and responsibility to know what makes us tick and we have a right and responsibility to use that knowledge to help people better enjoy their lives. If science produces a way for people to live longer, I will gladly participate. If you don't want to, Mr Kurson, then don't. I'd hate to see you go, but I won't interfere. Just don't go around saying that longer lifespans are demonstrably bad--it might not seem so biting on the abstract level, but it's hurtful to individuals who are dying and would rather live. Whether or not this new knowledge brings us a step closer to godhood remains to be seen. Even if the answer is no, or if the question is irrelevant, it does make me happy to see that we humans are so clever, curious and philosophical that we've finally started to figure ourselves out--if not metaphysically, at least physically.
--Michael Maiello
(To reply, click
here.)
Since when are books not technology [Tuesday's entry]? I suppose Ken's definition of technology is any invention that makes people better off in a way of which he disapproves. But hey, if utter incoherence lets him live more comfortably in his savage little world, more power to him. Just don't make me live in it too.
--Ananda Gupta
(To reply, click
here.)
[This is part of a much longer post, detailing the many ways in which the writer disapproved of Mr Kurson's views and disliked the choice of Breakfast Table participants.]
(6/29)
What was the last big discovery that had so many scientists crowing and so many empty talking heads yelping at some utopian moon [genome project, Tuesday]? Splitting the atom, yes? After so many decades, what wonderful benefits has that achievement provided to us? Good lord, I can't think of any. (Don't give me any jive about radiation therapy.) Is there no one who can analyze this situation in a realistic way without sentimentalizing about God or waxing rhapsodic about science? Give us a damn break. You're not going to see any benefits derived from geeks in labcoats mucking around with genes.
--tek
(To reply, click
here.)
To tek: Humanity is richer, healthier, and happier today than ever before, largely because of scientific and technological advance. Please spare us the self-indulgent crap about lab-coated guys ruining life. In fact, it's been the damn artsy types (Hitler, Stalin, Mao--all prided themselves on their artistic abilities, none was a scientific or technical guy) who have been the architects of the last century's horrors. Where's the responsibility for that?
--A.G.Android
(To reply, click
here.)
[And this argument ran and ran--"had smallpox lately tek?" "No, how about AIDS?" "I feel quite the moron responding" "Trust your feelings".]
There's a huge amount of information in life other than DNA. Protein folding is one of the less complex and difficult. This is why Marisa Bowes is considering things that couldn't possibly be explained by DNA. I'm sure it's well for her to ask, but it's clear that the brain that questions the genetic code is extremely more complex than is the DNA that pointed it in the right direction.
What happens in the brain has crucial roots in DNA, yet its complexity and operation are far more ordered by the brain's environment, inside and outside of the body, than it is by DNA. You don't ask of anything as complex as a thought what its relation is to DNA without severe reductionism. The sooner the media learn something of the complexity of everything, the sooner we'll learn something of the complexity of what they usually report on. They've moved in that direction in the last 10 or 20 years. They still have a long way to go. One hopes the genome sequencing will take the media that way.
--Glen Davidson
(To reply, click
here.)
[Ms Bowe responded to this post in her second Tuesday entry.]
(6/27)
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Reader Response from The Fray (to be read after the final entry):
[From the Fray Editor: Ken, Ken you didn't need to mention homosexuality or abortion to encourage controversy--saying there are too many people and they live too long (Tuesday) worked just fine. Fray posters came out in force, bringing with them Spinoza and a 95-year-old grandmother. The post below was titled Don't tell me when to die Mr Kurson:]
What an ugly letter by Mr Kurson! How exactly is the premise that people should live longer demonstrably false? I like the idea of using government money to prolong life (especially my life, it's demonstrably true that my life is cool). We have a right and responsibility to know what makes us tick and we have a right and responsibility to use that knowledge to help people better enjoy their lives. If science produces a way for people to live longer, I will gladly participate. If you don't want to, Mr Kurson, then don't. I'd hate to see you go, but I won't interfere. Just don't go around saying that longer lifespans are demonstrably bad--it might not seem so biting on the abstract level, but it's hurtful to individuals who are dying and would rather live. Whether or not this new knowledge brings us a step closer to godhood remains to be seen. Even if the answer is no, or if the question is irrelevant, it does make me happy to see that we humans are so clever, curious and philosophical that we've finally started to figure ourselves out--if not metaphysically, at least physically.
--Michael Maiello
(To reply, click here.)
Since when are books not technology [Tuesday's entry]? I suppose Ken's definition of technology is any invention that makes people better off in a way of which he disapproves. But hey, if utter incoherence lets him live more comfortably in his savage little world, more power to him. Just don't make me live in it too.
--Ananda Gupta
(To reply, click here.)
[This is part of a much longer post, detailing the many ways in which the writer disapproved of Mr Kurson's views and disliked the choice of Breakfast Table participants.]
(6/29)
What was the last big discovery that had so many scientists crowing and so many empty talking heads yelping at some utopian moon [genome project, Tuesday]? Splitting the atom, yes? After so many decades, what wonderful benefits has that achievement provided to us? Good lord, I can't think of any. (Don't give me any jive about radiation therapy.) Is there no one who can analyze this situation in a realistic way without sentimentalizing about God or waxing rhapsodic about science? Give us a damn break. You're not going to see any benefits derived from geeks in labcoats mucking around with genes.
--tek
(To reply, click here.)
To tek: Humanity is richer, healthier, and happier today than ever before, largely because of scientific and technological advance. Please spare us the self-indulgent crap about lab-coated guys ruining life. In fact, it's been the damn artsy types (Hitler, Stalin, Mao--all prided themselves on their artistic abilities, none was a scientific or technical guy) who have been the architects of the last century's horrors. Where's the responsibility for that?
--A.G.Android
(To reply, click here.)
[And this argument ran and ran--"had smallpox lately tek?" "No, how about AIDS?" "I feel quite the moron responding" "Trust your feelings".]
There's a huge amount of information in life other than DNA. Protein folding is one of the less complex and difficult. This is why Marisa Bowes is considering things that couldn't possibly be explained by DNA. I'm sure it's well for her to ask, but it's clear that the brain that questions the genetic code is extremely more complex than is the DNA that pointed it in the right direction.
What happens in the brain has crucial roots in DNA, yet its complexity and operation are far more ordered by the brain's environment, inside and outside of the body, than it is by DNA. You don't ask of anything as complex as a thought what its relation is to DNA without severe reductionism. The sooner the media learn something of the complexity of everything, the sooner we'll learn something of the complexity of what they usually report on. They've moved in that direction in the last 10 or 20 years. They still have a long way to go. One hopes the genome sequencing will take the media that way.
--Glen Davidson
(To reply, click here.)
[Ms Bowe responded to this post in her second Tuesday entry.]
(6/27)