It would have been nice if Rachel also mentioned the effects inflated rape statistics have on men, including the environment they find themselves in on campus, and the rush to judgement that so often happens. The idea that everyone who missinforms with bogus rape statistics is "well-meaning" is awfully generous and one-sided.

At least there appears to be agreement that the numbers are, indeed, inflated.

In medical school I was forced to sit through a patronizing discussion on date rape, where every guy is painted as a devious manipulator and every girl as a helpless little butterfly devoid of responsibility for her own actions.

There are enough devious manipulators out there that every girl, some of whom are still, even in today's culture, naive when they start college, needs to be aware of the potential. Just as the adolescent male frequently takes chances with his physical well-being, the adolescent female does, too. Many have absorbed the message that there is gender equality, but have not come to terms with the realities that:
1. the average male can physically overpower the average female.
2. alcohol lowers one's inhibitions and interferes with one's judgment Given these two inconvenient facts, irresponsible behavior can lead to unpleasant consequences, and there are rules that both sexes should be aware of to minimize potential problems.
Sorry if your discussion was patronizing, but there were probably some in the audience who really needed to hear what was being said. If you found the environment unpleasant, try to put yourself in the position of a woman who awakens one morning to realize that she doesn't quite remember exactly how it happened, but she knows she had sex with someone she didn't want to have sex with--even worse if she is bruised, sore, or otherwise has evidence that she really didn't acquiesce to whatever happened.

and if, as is all too often, she lies? what recourse do males have AFTER being falsely accused? don't get me wrong, a forcible rape should result in very, very severe penalties, but not more so than lying because you decided AFTER it wasn't what you wanted...fair is fair......

ellamenta: ...try to put yourself in the position of a woman who awakens one morning to realize that she doesn't quite remember exactly how it happened, but she knows she had sex with someone she didn't want to have sex with....

In a "typical and generalized" scenario like that, EVERYONE does things (to everyone else) without remembering "exactly how it all happened." Why should some (because of their gender?) be able to call themselves victims of the others?

...which doesn't mean that situations with victims CAN'T occur--they can. I'm only saying that Drunk + something happened that I didn't want, does not necessarily = a victim (and probably does not MOST TIMES = a victim).

...unless,uh....you embrace victimhood.

"and if, as is all too often, she lies?"

Speaking of statistics, how the hell do you know that happens "all too often". How often? I doubt it happens often at all considering the trauma a woman goes through to make such an accusation. I have no doubt that it is FAR more common for a rape to occur and a woman to be afraid to report it than for her to lie about a rape that never happened.

to add to OIC's point and expand on yours, it is unfair to hold the boy responsible for his drinking, but give the girl a pass as a young and impressionable victim. I'm sure the most common scenario is that BOTH parties are drunk and lacking proper judgement. OIC is also right in that far too many women like to enjoy "plausible deniability", deciding only after the fact that they wished they hadn't done whatever they did.

I brought up my patronizing med school experience partly because it was a group of mature (avg age 27) academic types, hardly the audience for a "scared straight" talk. Anyway, we were asked to discuss a scenario where a girl was in a room with her boyfriend while her friends were in the room next door. Both had been drinking. She was wanting to kiss and fondle etc, but said no when he initially tried to go further. Things then progressed and they ended up having intercourse, which, she said, she did not want but did not stop because she didn't want to be embarassed. The question was then whether she should press charges for date rape.

What do you think?

This guy is probably an ass, but he's no rapist. This girl is saying that being raped is preferable to being embarassed, which is ridiculous. I, of course, was branded a misogynist for saying so in the PC world of medical school.

oops..did'nt know so many had joined in. My previous post was for ellamenta.

TJ

Your point is valid, and maybe even true; although you will admit, I'm sure, that you know nothing more than OIC does on the subject. Assuming you are a woman, do you ever go to a male doctor these days without having a nurse chaperone around? This isn't because most or even many doctors are sexually deviant. It is because so many women have falsely accused doctors. Like so many, you overestimate the innocence and embrace the victimhood of women.

It is worth mentioning, also, that if a woman does choose to press charges, she does not have to face the accused and will not be named in the press.

kuruman,

Your example is realistic and brings up a challenging question: Could it be at all plausible or "justifiable" to say that the "degree of resistance" defines whether rape occurred?

There are some very UNpleasant things about that idea...and also some practically realistic things about it.

Communication IS the key element, afterall. But then THAT can be unfairly miscontrued, as well: The "real" date rapist who claims that fairly active physical resistance was just "play wrestling" or something.

One has to be fair and say that there ARE scenarios in which women "relent" to rape because they feel that showing significant resistance could escalate the risk of dangerous confrontation (which, at the same time, that LACK of physcial resistance could have HONESTLY been interpreted by the male as agreement to the act).

For me personally, such things have NEVER been an issue in any way: I have NO INTEREST in sexual activity with anyone who isn't HOTLY interested in response. Apparently, it's not always like that for all other people at all other times (which is why these discussions sometimes confuse me).

....I'm just not sure that miscommunication is fairly construed as crime.

StevieN:

I agree 100%. I, also, would never come close to date raping someone. If anything, in my dating days, I was accused of the opposite...not being aggressive enough. That's part of the problem isn't it?

I agree that women might have to make the horrible choice of giving in in hopes of avoiding being beaten etc. That is true, of course. And you are absolutely correct about communication. Women, if they want to be realistic and fair about the situation, can admit that some among them say no sometimes just to see how much the guy wants them or whatever. I'm also 100% sure that many if not most cases of so called"date rape" would be prevented by a very loud NO, followed by "under no circumstance do I want to have sex with you. If you do anything else to me you are raping me and I will call the police".

Suppose you substitute having sex with shooting a homeless person in the head with a handgun. Would a girl submit to doing that to avoid embarassment?

Whoa. don't go around casting that in a purely female light. You don't think males have some serious morning-after worries about the same thing? Please. STD's do not make prejudice, and bad, uninformed alcohol (or worse) decisions take their toll on both sexes.

TJA:

"and if, as is all too often, she lies?"

Speaking of statistics, how the hell do you know that happens "all too often". How often? I doubt it happens often at all considering the trauma a woman goes through to make such an accusation. I have no doubt that it is FAR more common for a rape to occur and a woman to be afraid to report it than for her to lie about a rape that never happened.

DUKE LACROSSE TEAM

roe vs wade....she lied.

tawanna...