Jurisprudence

What's wrong with tiltilation?

degsme — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 19:13:17 GMT

What's wrong with tiltilation?

The reason tiltilation is in the statute is the fear that in tiltilating an adult male, the images will encourage that male to abuse children.

I'm not denying or pretending that sexual abuse of children doesn't happen. Rather that it doesn't happen quite the way we think it does.

The second aspect of the law is that it is intended to limit the motivation for commercially exploiting these children.

Both of those are noble goals. But the reality is that tiltilation by underage persons is nothing new. Most models start their careers as minors. And you can't convince me that Alice Sinclair learned to be comfortable in this magically on her eighteenth birtday - or that as a minor on the catwalk she wasn't being tiltilating.

Children are sexual beings. that's the reality. And they engage in tiltilation and self gratification at ages we are much less willing to admit (I remember my youngest sister had to be taught that grinding against the arm of the couch was not appropriate behaviour).

The problem with today's child pornography laws is that they are trying to legislate two very divergent items in one law:

An attempt to supress and deny the sexuality of our children
An attempt to protect our children from being abused and manipulated in a disparate power relationship.

#1 invariably undermines any effort to do this effectively because in denying reality, it closes off reasonable paths by which to accomplish #2

Re: What is child pornography?

Badbone — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:05:14 GMT

Thinking people can argue over such issues. What is pornography? What is "meant to titillate"? Thinking people can argue over such issues. Stupid people call other people “fundies” and think that is all they need to say.

Re: What is child pornography?

tech42er — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:38:52 GMT

Or, you know, we could just relax child porn laws and not prosecute teens who are obviously consenting to this (by virtue of TAKING THE FUCKING PICTURES). Then we could prosecute the ACTUAL perverts and sexual predators. But that would be make too much sense and upset the fundies.

Re: What is child pornography?

todji — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 03:02:39 GMT

I was joking.

Re: What is child pornography?

narby — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 02:56:11 GMT

They don't look like porn to me. Maybe porn is in the eye of the beholder?

Re: What is child pornography?

todji — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:19:33 GMT

Distributing links to child porn on the fray now, huh?

Re: What is child pornography?

todji — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:16:51 GMT

I'd assume that said person would eventually want to look at the photos, no? If not, what possible motivation would they hafe? If so, then by the time the police get involved, they'd probably have possession and could be prosectured.

To by a camera/phone for a kid which is then used to take nude images wouldn't be prosecutable unless there was intent behind the purchase. The adult could be prosecuted by laws that punish contributing to the deliquency of a minor.

But I'm not a lawyer. Just a reasonable guess.

Re: What is child pornography?

narby — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:37:03 GMT

What type of behavior are you talking about? What was done with the pictures--e.g., were they pasted into the family photo album or sold on the Internet?

Re: What is child pornography?

Je_ne_sais_quoi — Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:34:28 GMT

todji:
The toothless uncle or the pervert step-mother could be prosecuted for possession of child porn in the scenarios you mention. There's still nothing gained by penalizing the kids.

But could the adult who buys the kid a camera and maybe encourages particular behavior be charged with production of child porn if the kid takes the pictures and the adult is there and encourages it? How about if the adult isn't there exactly when the pictures are taken, but is encouraging of the behavior?

Re: What is child pornography?

narby — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 22:52:52 GMT

Another try at a link to some David Hamilton photos

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/146110653_17fdf2ef63.jpg?v=0

http://images.artnet.com/picture.asp?date=20021128&catalog=16329&gallery=111629&lot=01202&filetype=2

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KhRbBqGtOmo/STUMYx_tziI/AAAAAAAABhI/7ETiyPTcxXU/s320/davidhamilton.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ag4Jnx21Rvk/SIm6zOm_0TI/AAAAAAAACDg/dng9Z3oHsQg/s400/YellowFlowwers.bmp

Re: What is child pornography?

narby — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 22:44:32 GMT

Thanks. That's helpful. I didn't realize that the definition of child pornography was that restrictive. Years ago I reacall questions being raised about David Hamilton's pictures of nude teenage girls. Here's onehttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/146110653_17fdf2ef63.jpg?v=0

Re: What is child pornography?

todji — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:53:45 GMT

A picture of a nude minor would be protected free speech unless it was of a lascivious nature:

(8) “child pornography” means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where—

(A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; (B) such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or (C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2256.html

Re: What is child pornography?

todji — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:47:00 GMT

The toothless uncle or the pervert step-mother could be prosecuted for possession of child porn in the scenarios you mention. There's still nothing gained by penalizing the kids.

Re: What is child pornography?

Je_ne_sais_quoi — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:18:50 GMT

Kimmitt:

These fall into any reasonable definition of kiddie porn except for one -- no person other than the minor was involved in producing them.

Was the parent who purchased the phone with a camera on it involved in producing them? What if someone (drunken stepdad, toothless uncle, or some other ne'er-do-well) sets up a situation where naked self-pics are almost inevitable while breaking no other laws (alcohol to minors, or something else)?

Re: What is child pornography?

Je_ne_sais_quoi — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:10:15 GMT

Thanks. Does there need to be sexual suggestiveness or actual sexual contact to make it child pornography?