Brow Beat

Amber Stevens West on How The Carmichael Show Made Its Fascinating Episode About Modern Gender Politics

Loretta Devine and Amber Stevens West in “Man’s Work.”

Chris Haston/NBC

Each episode of The Carmichael Show covers some controversial, or at the very least, delicate subject matter: transgender identity, healthy eating, police brutality, Bill Cosby. This Sunday’s episode, “Man’s Work,” is no different, with the Carmichael family finding itself in the middle of a culture war surrounding gender politics. Maxine (Amber Stevens West) becomes upset when Jerrod (Jerrod Carmichael) laughs at her for wanting to change a flat tire, based solely on the fact that she’s a woman—which leads to a swift divide between her and the rest of the family about the roles that men and women play in society.

I spoke with West about how the upcoming episode handles issues of femininity and masculinity, as well as her experiences working on The Carmichael Show.

This is a big episode for your character, in the sense that we get to dig a little bit deeper into the shades of feminism that Maxine has shown throughout these first two seasons. Do you recall how her character was originally pitched to you? And how has she evolved for you from then up until now? 

You know, there was never much of an original pitch, it kind of just developed as the episodes came to me. I knew that the point of view of the character was always going to be as opposite as it could be from everyone else in the family, and that’s kind of the role of the character. Jerrod [frequently] finds himself in the middle, of agreeing with me and [also playing] devil’s advocate, to really egg people on with those questions and stuff. So I always knew that I was going to have to agree or just play the opposite as everyone else. But that’s kind of as far as we had taken it and as the episodes developed, Maxine’s point of view was more and more developed by the writers. So this episode in particular, I guess like you said, I’m finally showing what it is I believe a feminist is, and I love the discussion of the difference between feminism and sexism and chivalry and what that means—and can you still be chivalrous and expect chivalry when you are a feminist.

In my personal life, that’s actually a discussion I had to draw on when they were writing this episode, that was a point of view that I wanted to make sure got across because that’s something that my girlfriends and I in real life are always talking about. We’re all pretty strong feminists, but at the same time, you know, we want a man to open the door for us and we want him to take care of us in a way.

That was something that I definitely could relate to with this episode. It seems like a very common struggle for milllennial women. And of course there’s also sort of a generational divide in this episode as well, particularly between you and Cynthia [Loretta Devine]. What has it been like to work with Loretta in creating this tricky dynamic?

You know, I guess, you’ll have to ask Loretta about her own character, but we know the roles we are meant to play in the show, the difference generationally between Maxine’s character and this new wave of thinking as part of what defines you as a woman. And this old-school mother thing. It’s not even old-school, it just has to do with being a parent and she has so much more life that she’s lived … She’s like, “I’ve been around a lot longer than you, and these are the things that actually matter.” And it’s kind of a naïve way to think when you’re young, that you know exactly how people should all be and how life is and how you should be treated, and because you haven’t experienced as much as someone who’s older. There’s no right answer, and I think that’s what’s so special about our show, is that we’re not preaching to you, “This way is better than that way and this way is wrong and that way is better …” We’re showing you that it’s all gray, and you can take in the pieces that make most sense to you and kind of just live your life by those [standards].

It’s interesting that you should mention the gray area, because I have to admit that when I first started watching the episode I was a little skeptical about the Battle of the Sexes premise—this basic sitcom trope that goes all the way back to I Love Lucy. But then, obviously it goes deeper than that. It’s not just modern-day femininity and feminism that are being examined, it’s also modern day masculinity as well. Did you have any input on that?

I didn’t have any input on that, no … but I know [the end of the episode] is very honest as far as how Jerrod really feels, and I love the end, where he says to his dad, “You taught us how to be a great man of the 1950s, but nowadays I don’t want to get on a roof and fix my roof, I can hire a guy to do that, and I shouldn’t think less of my girlfriend because she wants to change a tire. I have no good reason to do that.” It’s an honest perspective from the younger generation, a man who doesn’t need to prove he’s a man by doing physical activity; being a man and being woman isn’t defined by those physical terms anymore.

What kinds of conversations, if any, did you guys have during the table reads? Is there any episode that stands out to you as particularly memorable with regards to the discussion around the script when you were reading it and rehearsing it?

Um, you know we talk about all the episodes every time we make them just because they’re really fun topics to talk about, but we’ve never had any sort of arguments or anything over it. The one time where I did have a perspective to put in there and [thought] it needed to be addressed was in this episode, when I talk about the struggle that the modern woman has between chivalry and sexism. That was the only thing where I was like, “We haven’t talked about this, and it’s something I personally, in my real life, would love to see addressed, even it’s offensive, that’s something I wanna hear.” But as far as overarching, entire topics, I don’t know that we’ve ever had heavy discussions …

There was an episode—it hasn’t aired yet, we taped it—but it’s all about porn. And I was just going to say, that was the most exciting table read we’ve ever had, because everyone was kind of nervous because that’s a topic you just don’t talk about, especially in a professional setting. And then on top of it, we don’t really even talk about porn and watching it even when you’re in a relationship, a serious relationship, or even a marriage to somebody. It’s almost like a private script thing, but everyone knows it exists, and you don’t really talk about it. So to have that table read, that started a real discussion, and that was really exciting and fun. I look forward to that episode airing in a few weeks to see how people respond to it and if it actually changes the discussion that people have.

Between this episode and the recent episode about Cynthia’s mental health, you two have had some really tense, important moments together: You challenged her to open up on the subject of depression, and now she’s challenged you in terms of what your ideas of feminism are or should be. Do you think that your characters will ever see eye to eye and come together, or will this relationship forever be on eggshells?

You know, I kind of see it as always being on eggshells because Cynthia is a woman who’s set in her ways, and I think Maxine is a woman who likes to stand by her own, new-age beliefs … But I think when it comes to family, they both love really hard, and they both love Jerrod so much that I think they will find some kind of middle ground there, and they will agree to disagree a little bit. But we’ll just have to see. At the end of “Man’s Work” Cynthia has her big blowup and she yells at Maxine about who she thinks she is, and she’s essentially planting a seed. I think over time, the two of them will start to plant more and more seeds in the other person and make them question their own beliefs … I think they’re going to continue to challenge each other forever. 

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

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